DAN MCGINN: Welcome to Dear HBR: from Harvard Business Review. I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating. But it doesn’t have to be. We don’t need to let the conflicts get us down.
DAN MCGINN: That’s where Dear HBR: comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts, and help you move forward. Today we’re answering questions from workers at start-ups with Dave Balter. He’s a start-up founder and investor and the author of the new book, The Humility Imperative: Effective Leadership in an Era of Arrogance. Dave, thanks for coming on the show.
DAVE BALTER: Thanks for having me.
DAN MCGINN: So Dave, how are workplace dilemmas different at start-ups?
DAVE BALTER: I think one of the first things is, start-ups are amoeba-like in many ways and are in a constant state of searching for who they are and what they’re going to be. And so, if you like living in that unknown, it can be really fun to take whatever dilemma’s coming at you and use that as the format for maybe building the next policy for the organization.
DAN MCGINN: We get a fair number of letters where the person really isn’t cut out to be at a start-up. I’m surprised how often this dilemma comes up.
DAVE BALTER: Yeah, this happens a lot. So, there’s this, you know, idea that start-up life, it’s the ultimate thing to challenge yourself, and it’s the way to untold riches if your company becomes a unicorn and all that sort of stuff. And so we do get many career-oriented individuals who have built a great journey through large organizations who say, one day, I’m going to be in a start-up. It’s such a different world, and I think the question comes down to psychological safety. Are you designed to be comfortable not having a lot of it, which may mean you’re ready to be in a start-up, even if you’ve spent your career in larger organizations?
ALISON BEARD: Dear HBR: I currently work at a healthcare start-up where I’m pretty much the only one that runs product management. Before this, I worked for five years at a much bigger healthcare company, first as a software engineer and then a product owner. I always wanted to work for a start-up and have bigger impact, and here my expertise and education are valued. And I’m close to how the business is run, which was eye-opening for me. I also have stock options. The issue is, there’s too much work. Working nights and weekends is the norm. After seven months at the company, I’m already feeling burnt out. I’ve talked to my manager to get help. First, she said we didn’t have the money to hire anyone. Then she said we didn’t have the time to look for and interview people. And we’re only going to get busier. I feel that I’m not able to keep up with all of the demands, and I can sense that my boss is growing unhappy with me. The workload and that strained relationship make me quite stressed out. I interviewed for a job at another company and got an offer. It’s an entry-level product manager position with a big bank. My years of healthcare experience isn’t of much value to them, and the pay is about 10-15% lower. But they do have better work/life balance, including 16 weeks of maternity leave. I have a kid now and plan to have another. My current start-up offers only eight weeks of maternity leave. What should I do?
DAVE BALTER: [LAUGHTER] Well, I think the answer’s pretty obvious. Take the new job.
ALISON BEARD: Why do you say that?
DAVE BALTER: You know, well, here’s what I hear in there. One, the individual sounds like they’ve done a really good job at their current organization, so jumped in with two feet, took a role, ended up in the swing of a start-up that is clearly, like any start-up, running fast. People are overworked. The hours are very abnormal. They’re nontraditional, and is getting burnt out. And so for this individual, if they have an offer at a bank, they seem more comfortable. It seems like it’s got, you know, they’re thinking about their future state, maternity, 16 weeks. A start-up doesn’t have the ability to match that type of stuff, etc. You know, it doesn’t feel like a question to me. It feels like a pretty obvious answer with an outcome that may lead them to be happier in their work/life balance.
DAN MCGINN: In terms of what went wrong here, do you think our listener should have done a better job during the interview of trying to get a sense of what the hours and demands were? Or do you find some fault with the manager for not making it clear, hey, this is a start-up? You should expect to not be a nine-to-fiver?
DAVE BALTER: Well, I don’t know if anything went wrong here. Maybe during her time at a bank, she starts working with a couple of start-ups, and now she is able to reflect on just why the individual she’s communicating with is seemingly frazzled. You know? So I’m, on the other side, for the company, look, in start-ups, your half-life is often very different. So when you have three people in a room and go to ten, the seven that you add, by the time you get to 20, half of them may not be there anymore, just because it’s a totally different work environment at 20 people than it was at ten or at three. I don’t think I’d see it as a failure. I think it’s an opportunity for both sides to have gotten a little value from each other and now move into different work/life balances.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I think the primary question is, is she suited to a start-up, and there do seem to be aspects of it that she likes. So my first inclination is to see if she can take one more crack at talking with this manager, just full transparency with the manager about what she expects, and then also hiring plans going forward to see if there is some solution they can both agree on that will be manageable. And I’d like her to give it one more try because they pay is good. She likes being close to the business. And there was something that drew her to go to this start-up in her area of expertise in the first place.
DAVE BALTER: I’m going to go out on a limb and disagree. I mean, I’m always for taking other shots, so don’t, you know, so go talk to the manager and say, I really want it. But everything I’ve heard from this note tells me, even if she wins the battle, the war is lost. OK? So the win of the battle is, I need more time. The manager says, OK, oh, gosh, let’s be gentle. Let’s walk on eggshells because you need time, but the rest of the company maybe works in a different way. Now you’ve got the problem where you’re the one that everyone’s walking around gently and probably behind the scenes is saying, like, you know, individual A doesn’t really want to work as hard as the rest of us. So you’ve got a problem there. You’ve got the maternity problem that she’s already identified. Big company gives me the benefits I want. Small company is shortchanging me. And so, when maternity comes around, you know, that’s going to be a complexity that is going to make her always sort of look around the corner, especially, because she’s going to be, you know, overworked and tired, and you know, all the rest, from the job as it is. Right? So I look at it like leopards don’t change their spots. Everything I hear in that note is she’s tried it. She’s ready. She talked to her manager. Her manager said this is what it is. And I don’t hear them making any diving save to keep her.
ALISON BEARD: I absolutely get that point. And if you’re a listener of this show, you know that I a huge advocate for work/life balance being more important than pay in many cases. But I wonder if the start-up is going to have a huge problem if they aren’t sort of willing to be flexible in the way that this seemingly very strong performer wants, particularly because she’s a woman, and raising children. Raising the issue one more time might benefit both her and the organization.
DAVE BALTER: I mean, maybe more to that, I mean, go to the CEO. One of the pleasures of a start-up is, you’re much closer to sort of the top management, and it may be, it might be time to say to your manager, do you mind if I have a conversation with the CEO just about my sort of, you know, how this company intends to grow in my work/life balance. Don’t go around your manager. That usually doesn’t work so well, but you know, let him or her know. I’ll tell you a funny story about my first ever job. I worked at Mercer Consulting, a big consulting firm, and I did accounting. And about six months into the role, I got another job offer at another company, and I decided that I was really good at what I did. This was my first job, right out of college. And so I made an appointment with the CEO. So they’d give me 15 minutes with [Chief Human Resources Officer] Pete Bleyler, and I’ll never forget them like cranking open the double, big double mahogany doors, and there he is at the end of this huge office behind a desk. And I sit down, and I say to him, you know, “I’m Dave, and this is what I do for the company. And you know, I’ve been given another job offer. And Pete, I’d like to know what you’re going to do to keep me.” And he looked at me directly in the eyes, and he said, “Absolutely nothing!” And so that was it. I walked out. That was the end of my job there. And I’ll ever forget that, that sometimes, you know, hearing from the very top what’s important and what isn’t can’ be the deciding factor. Her CEO may say, “Wait a second. This doesn’t feel like the culture I’ve been trying to inspire. Let’s have a, I’m going to have a discussion with my exec team.” Or that individual might say, “You know what? I don’t think we’re going to try to keep you. I think it is time for you to go to the bank.” And so maybe it’s time to go to the CEO.
DAN MCGINN: Dave, we’ve been talking mostly about whether she’s suited for the start-up and the hours and the demands, but let’s think about the financial calculation here. If she leaves the healthcare start-up, she’s giving up stock options. She’s giving up 10-15% of her pay. But she’ll have better working hours. She’ll get eight weeks of extra maternity leave when or if she does have another child. How do you net those things out?
DAVE BALTER: Yeah, well, I’ve already netted this out. She should go to the bank. [LAUGHTER] So that’s the first part, only because it’s not financial, this isn’t about like, I’m playing for the upside. So I’m going to like attack the hill. It’s, you can hear it in the letter. The bank is better hours, better maternity, slightly less money, and yeah, you don’t have options that you might have had in the other org, but everything about this tells me that it’s not about the compensation package. It’s about a lifestyle. Right? Now, let’s talk about the options you’re going to leave on the table, and I’ll speak out of sort of two sides of my mouth here. On the first side, you join a start-up. You get options. If it works, you know, you’re going to make up for many years of, you know, salary that you would have made elsewhere. And I will tell you, I like nothing more than exiting a business and looking around the room at dozens, hundreds of people who just made an incredible amount of money. And that’s like the best feeling in the world. So like, if that happens, great. So, play for the options. That’s one side. The other side is, it mostly doesn’t work. Right? Start-ups have a lot of risk. They’re, you’re jumping off a cliff into the unknown, and most start-ups don’t work. And so the only other question I’d think that you’d ask of this individual before she makes this decision, which is obvious, she should go to the bank. But the other question is, well, what likelihood does she think is possible that the start-up is going to work? And she could double down. She could say, OK, I’m leaving, but I’m going to exercise the options I have, that I’ve vested, if they’re vesting options, so maybe I have some, and maybe I take a little piece of that, and who knows, maybe it works, if she thinks it’s going to, and now I get the lifestyle I want elsewhere. That may be the best balance of both worlds.
ALISON BEARD: Can I ask a question, since you both 100% think that she should leave? Would you give the same advice if our letter writer was a man?
DAVE BALTER: Absolutely.
DAN MCGINN: Yeah, no question. It’s a temperamental thing. I don’t really see any gender difference here. This is mostly about temperament and appetite to work really long hours.
ALISON BEARD: OK.
DAN MCGINN: Alright, Alison, what’s our advice?
ALISON BEARD: So first we want our letter writer to recognize that this is a typical pace for a start-up, and start-ups rarely change the way they operate. People often work nights and weekends. It’s also not uncommon for people to come in and out of the business in a short time. It’s possible that she just isn’t suited to this sort of environment. She could give it one last stab by talking to her manager, or even the CEO, since it’s a small organization, to figure out if this 24/7 culture is the one that they want to create, what their hiring plans are, etc. Finances are a consideration. But it sounds to us like work/life balance is much more important to her. And we think she’s in a really good position because she has another job offer at a place where she expects that she’ll want to work. So maybe a little bit more investigation, but we probably encourage her to jump.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m leading a start-up in South America. We’re developing a few dozen square kilometers of land to grow a specialty fruit. We expect to be one of the largest exporters in the world of this fruit. I hired a person from another Latin American country to be the chief operating officer. He has great experience and is very smart. He was one of the top students in his class at the best agribusiness university in Latin America. Here’s the situation. He talks in a way that people get offended. He uses evocative language and says very strong things to the people he leads. I’m starting a coaching program for him. What do you think we should do?
DAVE BALTER: Well, I think the first thing is, you have to determine if the talent that you are aiming to work closely with to grow within your organization is worth investing in. So first things first. It sounds like a real talent. I haven’t heard yet whether they’re succeeding at the company, but they’re a real talent. And so, yeah, figuring out how to soften the sharp edges or make things a little more palatable is important. I will just say, I don’t quite like the issue, meaning this feels a bit like, you know, a cultural mismatch. I would say more than, before you set up the program to solve the problem, it probably requires a few conversations with the individual. Like, we’re going to set up this program. Are you interested in gaining this skill? You look at it like, what are you talking about? This is who I am. And if you don’t like it, I don’t want to be here. So I would, I’d start with the individual.
ALISON BEARD: I agree with both the points you made there, Dave. First, on the culture front, you know, it does seem like everyone in the start-up is from Latin America, but even within Latin America, there can be different ways of communicating, evaluating people, leading, deciding, disagreeing. And then there are personality differences on that front. And this individual might not intend to be offensive. It’s just the way he communicates. But then you see how he responds to feedback. We published a great piece on how to deal with a colleague who rubs people the wrong way. And you have a direct conversation. You focus on growth. You state facts. You know, you said this, and your colleague X reacted in this way. What’s your input? What’s your take on that situation? And how can we work together to figure out a way where everyone’s going to happy and get along in this organization. So I think that direct conversation is the very first step. But we just have talked in the last question about how start-ups are incredibly fast-paced. Everyone is flat out busy. And there is not a lot of time for these sorts of typical managerial tasks, 360-degree reviews, formal coaching programs. So how in that environment does our letter writer find the time to bring this guy to where he needs to be as a leader?
DAVE BALTER: Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, if it’s a start-up, and it’s a handful of people, I, you know, leopards don’t change their spots. I’d probably say it, you don’t have the time to go through the cultural shift of the individual and the cultural shift of the organization to get to the other side. A six-month journey is a lifetime in a start-up, and in that time, if coworkers are sort of building the wrong relationship with the individual and vice versa, you’re not going to bet very far. And yes, I’m supportive of coaching if the time works, and the individual’s open to it. But the more I’ve sort of thought about this one as we talk through it, yeah, you know, it’s a start-up. You probably don’t have that much time before the cement thickens and the foundation sets. And so you’d better move fast.
DAN MCGINN: Dave, you made the point earlier that when you have a very small company, say 15 or 20 people, every person you add has an outsized influence on the culture. Is there less tolerance for somebody who is not influencing the culture the way you want because you have so few people?
DAVE BALTER: Yeah, well, there’s a difference between influencing the culture the way you want, and working against it. You don’t need everyone to be the cheerleader of like, I’m carrying the torch to the next level, and sometimes people are passive, and that’s OK. It’s when someone’s working against the culture that you have to identify that fast, probably remove that individual if it’s impacting the culture you’re trying to build. Because once you damage a culture, it takes a long time to rebuild it.
DAN MCGINN: And it sounds like just reading the tone that your bet is that this person’s going to need to remove the COO.
DAVE BALTER: Yeah, I would. I mean, the way this is phrased, this individual has all the acknowledgments before this company that should make them a perfect fit. But that’s the danger, and you read a resume, right college, right awards, etc. Those are great. Don’t get me wrong. But those are irrelevant to the task of interviewing for culture first. Right? We have a guy that I’ve worked with for four companies who I don’t think graduated high school, and he’s amazing. He’s the best. He’s culturally awesome. He’s brilliant. And I don’t care he didn’t go to high school or college. We interviewed for culture, and that’s why we continue to work with him. And so, I’d be careful about the signal of, but they have all those things that somebody else said they’re amazing. Well, somebody else said they’re amazing for whatever they were doing at that time. What about what you need right now?
ALISON BEARD: So Dave, say our letter writer has an initial conversation where he gives this executive feedback on his style and asks him to change. How long should he wait before he decides, alright, he needs to go, because he’s not doing the right thing?
DAVE BALTER: Well, every situation’s a bit different. But I would say broadly, I would be looking for signals of willingness to adapt immediately, you know, a positive, oh, I’d love to change that. And I would be looking for actual signals of change, attending the courses, let’s say, that’s one. Maybe even witnessing with other coworkers, etc., a change in behavior. If I don’t see that within, frankly, days or maybe a week or two, I’ll start to make preparations for change.
ALISON BEARD: But don’t you need to have his replacement ready before you let him go? I mean, that could take a huge amount of time, too.
DAVE BALTER: Ah, well, OK, so this is where I get to plug my book time. In the Humility Imperative, there’s a chapter called, “Your Many, Many Gaps and How You Fill Them In.” I had a COO who was quitting on me right while we were entering M&A discussions. And he owns all of client services and delivery, and he sort of used it as a wedge. You know, he sort of said, oh, yeah? Well, I’m going to quit now unless you do X, Y, and Z right this moment. And my chairman at the time said to me, “The gaps, they always fill in.” OK? After I was like, “When this person goes, the world’s going to end, and it’s going to be over!” Nope, the gaps always fill in. And he was right. No matter who you lose, no matter who moves on, etc., you invariably find yourself at some point saying, you know what? It’s still, you know, we’re figuring it out. You know, now there’s a new person who filled in here, and you know, we didn’t need this, and well, it sort of worked out. And so I try to remember that now. No one is indispensable. There’s always, there are people you really want to keep, but there’s always, the gaps will always fill in if you really think about how to solve the problems you’re trying to achieve.
ALISON BEARD: So Dan, what’s our advice?
DAN MCGINN: So first, when it comes to coaching somebody who’s not fitting in, we need to realize that a start-up is short of all resources, including time. So the listener needs to decide whether this person, even though he’s the chief operating officer, is worth investing the time and resources to try to coach. The first thing that has to happen after that question is, have a conversation with the person. Does he recognize that he’s offending people? Does he take the feedback appropriately? Does he immediately express some willingness to change? In a small company, somebody whose behavior is a little bit toxic is going to have an outsized influence, and you don’t have much margin for error. You can’t let that stick around too long. So we think he’s got to think hard right now about how much time he’s going to give this and whether he’s going to be willing to move the person out of the job if that’s what it takes to fix this.
ALISON BEARD: Dear HBR: Last year I joined a small Swiss biotech company as its operations manager, reporting directly to the COO. The salary was below market, but I accepted it because this was my first paid job after relocating to Switzerland and looking for work for a while. Less than a year later, our start-up was acquired by one of the big pharma companies, and they decided to split the business. One part was folded into the pharma company, and just four employees were transferred. The other part was spun off into a new start-up with all the other employees, including me. My manager could have communicated things better, but as part of the shift, I took over more legal and compliance responsibilities. That’s my background. Overall, I like what I’m doing. I interact with other departments, and I’ve received positive feedback from colleagues for dealing with negotiations in an effective and timely manner. Here’s the issue. Last Friday I got my new employment contract from the CEO’s assistant. The terms and conditions haven’t changed. My job title has been updated to contracts manager, but the salary is the same, and I know it’s below market because the Swiss government has an online tool to calculate these things. In a few months, I’ll have been at the start-up for a year. How do I negotiate my compensation without harming my future here? Dave, what do you think?
DAVE BALTER: So, it sounds like the person is happy in the role. And the person is contributing well to the company. So those are important things. It is your duty inside a start-up to constantly raise your hand. And I say that, and I’m sort of grimacing, because I’m going to come back to my team, and they’re going to have heard this podcast, and everyone’s going to raise their hand and say, do I get a raise? [LAUGHTER] To which I’m going to say, no. No, you don’t. No, but I do say, look, if she’s achieving what she set out to do, and she’s being told she has a promotion, a title promotion, you ask for that raise. This is a classic sort of squeaky wheel scenario. This wouldn’t work if you were a month into the role. But you’re a year into the role, and you’re paying attention to timing, and some of the changes, and you’ve got to ask. And if you don’t ask, you don’t get. So this is a spot where you raise your hand a bit.
DAN MCGINN: With all that’s going on in the global economy right now, this seems like a pretty tough time to be asking for a raise. Is there a case to be made that she should just be thankful that she survived a merger, a spinoff, and still has a job, at a time when millions of people are getting laid off all around the world?
DAVE BALTER: Well, sure. I mean, yes, she should be grateful. But if you ask for a raise and lose your job for it, there are bigger cultural problems at that company. So I would say, be thankful. I might acknowledge upfront the timing. “Hey, look, I’d love to have an open, is it OK if I have an open conversation with you?” Sort of go in, don’t come in guns blazing. Come in with, “Can I have an open conversation? It’s a weird time in the world. Like, I’m, look, I’m with you. I’m a human. I’m watching the world do some really whacky things around us. And I’m thankful for my role. But you know, I’m also conflicted, because I do believe I’ve achieved good work here, and I would like additional compensation, and you know, before I say I need a raise or anything like that, I’d like to understand your point of view on that.” Right? And so, I often find these things work really well when you begin them as a dialog, as opposed to a demand. And I might start it as a dialog, and you’ll learn a lot if you open that door a bit. You know, what is the immediate reaction, you know, read their body language or their facial expressions. What’s their immediate reaction to having a conversation about compensation? Is it an immediate, “We don’t, everything’s, there’s no raises. You know, we’re in a hiring freeze and a raise freeze.” Or is it, “I’m not sure what I can do, but I’d really like to hear how you’re feeling,” like you’ve now got the dialog going. And once that’s going, lots of different avenues can be opened. And now maybe you ask, and they say, no, but at least you’ve raised your hand a bit.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I completely agree with you, Dave, that it 100% doesn’t hurt to ask, and her responsibilities have increased. It is a time of flux, but she’s proved her worth. Colleagues are thanking her for the work that she’s done post-merger. And so, I think it’s a conversation she needs to have.
DAVE BALTER: We have one employee now who is right out of college, about a year ago, and he negotiated on the way in. So we made a salary offer, and he said, I’d like, I think he wanted 10K more, and I said, “No. You’re right out of college. You’re at the top of the list.” And he said, “OK.” And I said, “Wow, you just agreed to that?” He said, “Well, I didn’t think I’d get it, but if I didn’t ask, you know, how would I ever know.” So I said, “OK.” Now, it’s been about a year. And he came to me about a month ago. His year anniversary is coming up. And he said, “Hey, remember at the beginning I asked? I’d like to know if you think I’ve achieved what we set out to achieve, and what my growth path related to that raise might look like.” And I really respected that. I told him, “I don’t think we’re there yet, for X and Y, but you’re right, a year’s coming up, and we should have that discussion.” And as he lays that groundwork, he is definitely top of my mind as I talk to my other executives about who deserves and who’s going to get a raise in the next cycle. So, you’ve got to raise your hand. If you don’t raise it, no one’s ever going to go out of their way to contribute to your next success.
ALISON BEARD: One issue, however, is that women do face more backlash than men do when they try to negotiate for higher salaries. And we’ve published research showing they’re more likely to be turned down, even when they do ask. The good news is, she’s coming in with data already. That’s sort of the first piece of advice that you tell people when they try to negotiate their salary or raise. You say, you know, you need to know what the market rate is. You need to know your value. She has qualitative data from the colleagues who have appreciated her work, and maybe she could get testimonials or something along those lines, or just someone patting her on the back in public. So I think she’s very equipped to have this conversation. It’s just a matter of getting the confidence to do it.
DAN MCGINN: Yeah, that’s often one of the hardest parts, is to understand what the real market is, and in Switzerland, she says, they have this website that people can use. So she comes to the table armed with information that people in other economies sometimes really struggle to get. So maybe she has a little bit more leverage than the average person here.
DAVE BALTER: Yeah, I would say everything that is in this letter tells me she’s a strong candidate to be considered for raises and continued promotions. They’re offering a title promotion. She’s made it through acquisition and been brought into the start-up fold a second time. And so, you know, they’ve acknowledged contribution. But now maybe that compensation needs to match. So I’d say she has a pretty good, at the very least, a pretty good opportunity to have an open dialog about what getting to a raise looks like.
ALISON BEARD: Dave, in this case, because it’s a start-up, is it possible that she could negotiation for more equity or options?
DAVE BALTER: She, maybe, yeah. There are, you know, different compensation matters to different people. That’s for sure. Some people like more vacation packages. Some people like ownership in the business. If it’s a public org, they might want stock. If it’s a private org, maybe it’s options. You know, that’s why it’s a dialog. Right? It may end up being, hey, look. We have no more capital, no more cash to give people raises, but here are three other things that maybe are beneficial. Would you be interested in those? We want to keep you. Right? And we just can’t do cash right now. Or maybe, look, we’re at the next cycle when we can give raises in four months. So in the short term, what if we did this instead, which would, you know, there’s other ways to get capital plus on the balance sheet than just a raise.
DAN MCGINN: Alison, what’s our summary?
ALISON BEARD: So first we’d encourage our listener to be grateful for the job she has and making it through the merger. It sounds like she is a very successful employee at this now spun-off start-up. We think she should ask for an open conversation about the potential for her to get an increase, given her new responsibilities. We think it never hurts to see where they are in terms of their ability to offer her more money. We are glad that she’s equipped with data on her market value, and she has kudos from her colleagues to show managers, and we want to remind her that she can negotiate on more than pay. You know, there’s vacation, equity, options, flex time. So in sum, we encourage her to open the dialog, and we wish her the best of luck.
DAN MCGINN: Dave, thanks for coming on the show.
DAVE BALTER: Thanks for having me. This was really fun.
DAN MCGINN: That’s Dave Balter. He’s a start-up founder and investor and the author of the new book, The Humility Imperative. Thanks to the listeners who wrote us with their questions. Now we want to know your question. Send us an email with your workplace challenge and how we can help. The email address is, DearHBR@HBR.org.
ALISON BEARD: We also want to thank Louis Weeks and Nick DePrey for composing our theme music.
DAN MCGINN: We hope you liked today’s episode. And if you want to get the next one automatically, please go to your podcast app and hit, subscribe.
ALISON BEARD: And if you liked the show, please give us a five-star review.
DAN MCGINN: I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Thanks for listening to Dear HBR:.
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